Willi- As we said Hwy 2K can be a positive

[Muadib]

You are ignoring the 'vast road network' which allows one to get from one side of the island to the other in a breeze.

Air-Cargo Hub being proposed in South, Expansion of Kingston Port, creation of Esquivel port on South Coast. massive developments on North Coast...

Why would you need a Rail freight system ?

Heh, heh.. yuh gwaan tek Don1 serious...

[Westman]

Ok. so you do not have first ahnd knowledge about ja's situation. You are quoting generalities from a report. I know for a fact, from my experience, that freight rail is a good idea for Jamaica.

[Muadib]

Is an extensive rail network being proposed ?

Do you believe the current use of rail is adequate for Jamaica within a scope of say 5 years.

Looks like you getting confused again.

[Don1]

Ok, whatever you say. Is this an opinion based on facts? Do you practice in this area?

This is an opinion based on facts. But just an opinion.
I don't per se practice in this area but I study Jamaica's development options exhaustively.

[Don1]

Insight from the World Bank

Here is a link to a World Bank piece on trends in rail transport which would put Jamaica's position in perspective.

http://www.worldbank.org/transport/rail_ss.htm

I highlight one section of this article:

"Considering their cost and service characteristics, railways generally are best suited to carry -- and can effectively compete for -- bulk commodities and containerized freight for distances of 500 to 5,000 km, and passengers for distances of 50 to 1,000 km. Below these limits road transport tends to be more competitive, while above these limits either air transport for passengers and freight or sea transport for freight tend to be more competitive."

If we use the above as a guide... clearly in our situation heavy rail is contra indicated..... even without considering the other negatives that I had previously indicated.

There are development options for Jamaica which may look attractive but when the numbers are crunched... some things just don't work well.
Unfortunately rail is one such option.

[Westman]

Ok, whatever you say. Is this an opinion based on facts? Do you practice in this area?

[Don1]

Wow! How did you make that leap? I defined light rail and heavy rail in terms familiar to folks in the US. However, I never made a comaprison between the countries, that is USA and Ja, regarding operation. The fact is that numerous countries with similar characteristics to Ja, use the heavy rail as a more efficient means of transporting freight between distribution centers.

It is clear that the life cycle costs of doing so will be lower than the life cycle costs of combining major freight arteral transport on the surface roadway system. The previous government also commissioned its own studies which confirmed such. The problem in Ja is two fold. First there is opposition from the folks who own trucks and who would be relegated to the shorter route distribution rather than the cross island transportation of freight if the rail option were to be made available again. The second is the initial capital or some kind of agreement with a third party for reinitiation and recouping of investment because the previous rail infrastructure was allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair.

No disrespect, but this is freight transportation 101.

I would love to know even 1 country with Jamaica's metrics - tiny size, small population, low economic activity and VERY dense road network.. utilizes heavy rail extensively.

Jamaica has been trying to divest the rail network for over a decade - there is a reason investors won't touch it - they'll lose their shirts, pants and shoes.
Jamaica is just not a great candidate for rail...too small, too poor, too mountainous, too many roads to use as an alternative.

If this was not the case the system would have been privatized years ago.

[Westman]

Wow! How did you make that leap? I defined light rail and heavy rail in terms familiar to folks in the US. However, I never made a comaprison between the countries, that is USA and Ja, regarding operation. The fact is that numerous countries with similar characteristics to Ja, use the heavy rail as a more efficient means of transporting freight between distribution centers.

It is clear that the life cycle costs of doing so will be lower than the life cycle costs of combining major freight arteral transport on the surface roadway system. The previous government also commissioned its own studies which confirmed such. The problem in Ja is two fold. First there is opposition from the folks who own trucks and who would be relegated to the shorter route distribution rather than the cross island transportation of freight if the rail option were to be made available again. The second is the initial capital or some kind of agreement with a third party for reinitiation and recouping of investment because the previous rail infrastructure was allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair.

No disrespect, but this is freight transportation 101.

[Don1]

You are confusing issues. Willi was speaking of heavy or freight rail. Jamaica desperately needs to have this reinstated. Some heavy/freight rail do include passenger cars. In the states, Commuter Rail trains run on heavy rail lines and use diesel units that can be used in assemblies to pull freight.
Light Rail is a different ball game. Light Rail is passenger rail only. It is usually intraurban like streetcars, subways, etc. Amtrak is morem like commuter rail and is run on heavy rail tracks. Amtrak is interurban and is not light rail.

Jamaica needs a heavy/freight rail service to be reinstituted between major urban centers. The only true obstacle is that many have bought large trucks and trailers and they want to make money for haulage and damage the heck out of the roads. They stand to lose if the freight haulage is more efficiently moved between urban centers and then distributed with trucks to smaller towns over shorter distances.

I believe comparisons with the US are misguided. Orders of magnitude different from Jamaica.
The point is Jamaica cannot afford 2 fully developed transport systems at the current time. We do not have the scale or volume to make that economical. If you build out rail and build out the highway network they will both lose money as they share the limited traffic. Jamaica has a very,very dense road network and can't afford even routine maintenance now.

Rail in Jamaica should be limited to bauxite & maybe some tourist/excursion traffic along refurbished sections of the legacy network until our level of economic activity justifies a rail build out. We're not there yet.

[Westman]

You are confusing issues. Willi was speaking of heavy or freight rail. Jamaica desperately needs to have this reinstated. Some heavy/freight rail do include passenger cars. In the states, Commuter Rail trains run on heavy rail lines and use diesel units that can be used in assemblies to pull freight.
Light Rail is a different ball game. Light Rail is passenger rail only. It is usually intraurban like streetcars, subways, etc. Amtrak is morem like commuter rail and is run on heavy rail tracks. Amtrak is interurban and is not light rail.

Jamaica needs a heavy/freight rail service to be reinstituted between major urban centers. The only true obstacle is that many have bought large trucks and trailers and they want to make money for haulage and damage the heck out of the roads. They stand to lose if the freight haulage is more efficiently moved between urban centers and then distributed with trucks to smaller towns over shorter distances.

[Muadib]

Um.. what else is the purpose of a highway corridor ??

To collect Toll ?

Investment and Return..

Under PNP rating was POOR on the return side so we brought in new Management... somewhat late.. but better late than never.

[Assasin]

Willi if you rebuild the rail as you said it would have to be in central locations.

I can think of one right now, Kingston to Annotto Bay. That would bypass the Junction road for all big traffic and give the North East a direct connection.

[Karl]

Agreed...but we still need rails.

Tonnage will destroy the asphalt in no time.

Also, we have to plan for rapid increase in busines and transshipment if Jamaica is to improve economically to our satisfaction.

No need to take us off track?
No diversionary tactics?

The point was...and, still is - It can and shall stimulate economic activities...large scale economic activities!

Cho Willi, man!

[Willi]

Rail has its place.... it's great for point to point mass transport. Heavy cargo and some limited passenger.

However if you were to say build a rail link instead of a highway (I don't know if that's what you are suggesting as an alternative) how would the rail interlink with the legacy transport infrastructure (100% road) happen? Would you build rail spurs off the mainline into surrounding communities? Park and ride depots? Bus routes? Would commuters use these facilities?

Building a new rail based transport structure for commuters would bruk we pocket and many would not use it. I believe Trinidad is debating this right now..... they want to spend US$3-4 billion (something like that.... don't quote me) on a light rail system. Maybe they can afford it... we can't.

I agree on transshipment..... would love to see Caymanas Park relocated (along Hwy 2K corridor?) and those 200 acres used for an informatics complex or a free zone logistics center linked by a rail spur to the container port. Better use of the land.

I would rebuild the railway on the previous path. Emphasis on heavy goods, Passengers as an add-on.

We have the HWY, like it or not, so we should integrate the 2.

Railway could be a good tourist attraction too.

[Don1]

rail etc.

Agreed...but we still need rails.

Tonnage will destroy the asphalt in no time.

Also, we have to plan for rapid increase in busines and transshipment if Jamaica is to improve economically to our satisfaction.

Rail has its place.... it's great for point to point mass transport. Heavy cargo and some limited passenger.

However if you were to say build a rail link instead of a highway (I don't know if that's what you are suggesting as an alternative) how would the rail interlink with the legacy transport infrastructure (100% road) happen? Would you build rail spurs off the mainline into surrounding communities? Park and ride depots? Bus routes? Would commuters use these facilities?

Building a new rail based transport structure for commuters would bruk we pocket and many would not use it. I believe Trinidad is debating this right now..... they want to spend US$3-4 billion (something like that.... don't quote me) on a light rail system. Maybe they can afford it... we can't.

I agree on transshipment..... would love to see Caymanas Park relocated (along Hwy 2K corridor?) and those 200 acres used for an informatics complex or a free zone logistics center linked by a rail spur to the container port. Better use of the land.