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ReggaeboyzSC.com Forum. Forum for general discussions on Jamaica and world football. Non-football posts will either be moved to the correct forum or be deleted.

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  #1  
Old April 20th, 2012, 07:21 PM
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Default Raising the bar on Jamaican football culture!!

Jamaicans love the idea of being world beaters, it really doesn’t matter what the endeavor is as long as we are competing at a high level and have a chance to compete, we love it and we are totally into it! It makes us feel special and validates our sense of self, our sense of being Jamaican!

There are some fields of competition that we are more focused on than others; the big three, track and field, cricket and most importantly football, however it has been the case that the overall structure, talent identification process, competitive systems and improvement processes for these sports have been well in place in both cricket and in track and field and have been built upon for over 100 years; with a cultural infrastructure built around consistent measurement, targeted goals and constant feedback and improvement systems in place at pretty much every level.

Thus our consistent delivery of world class athletes in these areas, actually that should read dominant world class athletes. In track and field I don’t even have to mention the multiplicity of names from Wint through Walker, and in cricket most recently we have true world class performers like Courtney Walsh, Chris Gayle and a number of others in the past 20 years.

In football this has not happened, it has not even come close to happening! We have not developed a true world class footballer at an equivalent Walsh type level(one of the world’s greatest all time bowlers, he is in that discussion) or even at a Gayle type level (a world beater and one of the best bats of this current era).

The closest we have come is Ricardo Gardener and Ricardo Fuller, the first is a consistent contributor on an English Premier league team (best league in the world) for ten plus years, an excellent achievement, especially when compared to all the other players we have developed over the past 30 years, but not a world beater. Fuller has shown flashes of unparalleled brilliance followed by tons of nothing special, but still he has remained relevant to his club and he and Gardener are the best we have seen of our home grown talent in the past 30 years!

Outside of those two players we have some pretty good players in the Scandinavian leagues who have demonstrated they have what it takes to play professional ball on a consistent basis and this is especially so in the MLS, another second tier professional league from a world perspective where Richards, Marshall, Cummings, Williams, Ricketts and a number of others are the best we have to show over the past 10 years, very good players, strong contributors perhaps superior contributors on their team and in the case of Cummings, Marshall and Ricketts have come close to being dominant performers in the MLS but clearly not world beaters!

While at the same time we can name at will, multiple West African players that just seem to ooze to the surface so frequently, now of course we are not comparing Jamaica to the great continent or to a region of that great continent or even to any one specific country as the population size in all these countries way outstrip Jamaica but just looking at the quality of talent that has emerged from multiple countries in West Africa, is…. just amazing! from Ghana; Ayew, Gyan, Essien, Prince Boateng, Asamoah; from the Ivory Coast the Toure brothers and Drogba; from Nigeria a number of really good to great players; from Mali; Kanoute and Keita and on and on it goes where it stops, it will never stop!

What are those countries doing to identify and develop that talent, we must be doing something wrong!!!! I did not even get to Eto’o from Cameroon!! They are all playing at the best clubs in the world and are “Stars” there, everybody know them, ask an average non-Jamaican football fan to name one Jamaican football player and see the puzzled look you get!!

One of the most basic issues with Jamaican football as opposed to say track and field is this issue of measuring performance and identifying and selecting the best players for national duty. Too often we see players lauded for occasional and infrequent brilliant play that somehow gets multiplied manifold in the minds of some and becomes the stuff of legend.

One excellent defense splitting pass once per ten games or one incredible goal per year or a few body shifts leaving an opponent wobble footed in any way and somehow we have a player of mythic proportions, a Greek god! and once such status has been conveyed by any party it is not retractable, least of all in the mind of the player to who it has been attributed to, regardless of subsequent poor performance or no performance, it becomes a struggle of immense proportions between those for; and those against this player with no traction ever gained by either side, just tons of useless and at best somewhat entertaining labrish!!

The truth is it seems very much that when we as fans talk about players it is always more anecdotal rather than about consistent performance, we are not looking at multiple areas of performance and pulling together key indices to measure effectiveness as a player and certainly not in the specific areas in which we are looking for excellence.

As stated before track and field is really pretty straightforward, the person with the best times, longest, highest leaps and throws and doing so consistently and at the right time such as trials will always be selected…………. well most of the time!!!

It can never be the case in track and field that even if one athlete has superior form, better work habits, is more dedicated, has better track pedigree (KC versus Green Island for instance), speaks multiple languages, is brilliant in multiple subjects and is good looking to boot, can she or he ever be the choice over the person who has none of the above or much less in these areas but bottom line is consistently faster or better based on the performance measurement.

There is no real debate on this point, but in football that is not the case and there are many examples of this inconsistency in the selection process, lack of clear and consistent criteria from which to make such selection on the football side of the sports ledger. Some will say that is the difference between a total team sport and sports where there is a considerable element in the individual pursuit for personal improvement and gain which seems to have a clearer path in Track and Field and Cricket.

The bottom line is that the consistent measurement of performance, setting of goals and holding players accountable for their performance at an individual and team level can be the difference maker and the same key criteria can be used to identify the best players, this can be implemented to work consistently and to create the best total outcome, superior individual players and a superior national team. Create the cultural infrastructure for measuring performance and building on that will create the right focus and steer the program down the proper path to consistent improvement.

On an individual fan level from primary school right through premier league ball there is definitely a bias to those players that have the best fluidity in form and best simultaneous mind and body control which can render some opponents incapable of responding in an appropriate manner, this worship by fans at the “balla altar’ of these type of assets promote the development of the wrong set of skills and attributes on a consistent basis when the focus should be on more tangible, clearly measurable performance indicators.

What are these performance indicators, very simple and straightforward stuff! That is next!!
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  #2  
Old April 20th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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look like di writer nevah hear bout a man name Tappa Whitmore that score 2 goal at World Cup..

ah wheh di.. !?
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  #3  
Old April 20th, 2012, 07:37 PM
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I knew you were goimg to say that. And you are right.
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  #4  
Old April 20th, 2012, 09:30 PM
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2011/12 Barclays Premier League
GAMES GOALS ASSISTS SHOTS
34 27 10 148
Here is a player that is considered a good to great current player but no one would consider him to be a top 10 current player. Robin Van Persie. In 34 games he has 27 goals, yes 27 goals and 10 assists, that is a player between goals and assists this man is averaging at least one of those great stats for every game he plays. Name me one of our players that even comes close to such a stat in any professional league even a third division pro league, the answer is none. This is the real issue we are measuring our ballers ability on the wrong statistics.
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  #5  
Old April 20th, 2012, 11:31 PM
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Netball?
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  #6  
Old April 21st, 2012, 12:28 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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Tappa Whitmore coulda play on any team in di World and not miss a beat..

World Class ballah dat and him prove it gainst every big side him play gainst.. Man ah Match gainst big EPL side.. Mek Brazil ballah look chupid dem haffi knock him out..

Is ongly age coming out of di World Cup and den di accident why wi nevah get fi si him like Bibi.. Bibi and Fuller a bwoy next to Tappa when it come to Ball skill..

easy yuhself bredin..
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  #7  
Old April 21st, 2012, 10:36 AM
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...but Tappa for all our worship (come me in the group of worshipers) was never a TOP OF THE WORLD player. Our best midfielder but nowhere as a player in the class of say a John Barnes or Lindy Delaphena!

Stonigut is bang on target we too often judge our players on 2nd or 3rd rate standards...Is it any wonder our national teams are only always showing potential??? Where is development into TOP OF THE WORLD???

The raw talent is there. It is the teaching that is horrible. Teachers should be among other things, always inspiring pupils towards development of full potential...not keeping the pupils at always "im ave po-ten shall"!!!
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  #8  
Old April 21st, 2012, 10:48 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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Ask di Brazilian coaches (Simoes, Lazaroni etc) where dem rate Tappa in the Global Scheme.

Yuh eeidah know World Class ballah or nuh know World Class ballah when yuh si dem...

Cyaan help yuh.. by your mogle Bibi is a better ballah dan Tappa because him play 10 years innah EPL...

How yuh rate Roger Milla ?
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  #9  
Old April 21st, 2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muadib View Post
Ask di Brazilian coaches (Simoes, Lazaroni etc) where dem rate Tappa in the Global Scheme.

Yuh eeidah know World Class ballah or nuh know World Class ballah when yuh si dem...

Cyaan help yuh.. by your mogle Bibi is a better ballah dan Tappa because him play 10 years innah EPL...

How yuh rate Roger Milla ?
Bibi has always been considered a better player than Tappa. Both in their prime - If it came down to one or the other on TEAM?
Bibi always!

Bibi had great touch! - Tappa had great touch!
Bibi was 'miles' faster!
Bibi was greater TEAM player! - Simple pass and move always!

Tappa more tricky and had the killer pass...but TOP WORLD TEAM v TOP WORL TEAM, each on opposite sides? All other things being equal, Bibi's team would always win!!!

Bibi would contribute more to TEAM - lose the ball less often! ...and would more often win the ball!
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  #10  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:05 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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lol !! woiee !!

"lose the ball less often"

Tap chat faught.. please..

Next time yuh si Bibi ask him.. yuh lost fi chue !

Update yuhself wid real site !

http://www.thereggaeboyz.com/football-legends.html

Bibi bettah dan Tappa ?? lol !! Woiee.. mi belly...
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  #11  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:30 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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sniff, sniff... did someone fart ??

hmm..

smells like a Yankee Doo-Doo Dandy...

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  #12  
Old April 21st, 2012, 12:33 PM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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The question does not make me uncomfortable... the fact that someone as mindless as yourself has free access to the site makes me uncomfortable..



Apology accepted.. now back to Troll Land you go...

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  #13  
Old April 21st, 2012, 05:14 PM
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Hey Zeppo how is the US team looking in training for the London Olympics? What you think are the odds that they will medal?
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  #14  
Old April 21st, 2012, 07:39 PM
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are you nuts karl... bibi was nowhere near the player tappa was in his prime... no day... go to side with maudib on this point...

not because a player spend considerable time in the premier league makes him better than someone who didn't play in the league...

yeah good piece by stonigut... however him miss out on tappa...
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  #15  
Old April 21st, 2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonigut View Post
Jamaicans love the idea of being world beaters, it really doesn’t matter what the endeavor is as long as we are competing at a high level and have a chance to compete, we love it and we are totally into it! It makes us feel special and validates our sense of self, our sense of being Jamaican!

There are some fields of competition that we are more focused on than others; the big three, track and field, cricket and most importantly football, however it has been the case that the overall structure, talent identification process, competitive systems and improvement processes for these sports have been well in place in both cricket and in track and field and have been built upon for over 100 years; with a cultural infrastructure built around consistent measurement, targeted goals and constant feedback and improvement systems in place at pretty much every level.

Thus our consistent delivery of world class athletes in these areas, actually that should read dominant world class athletes. In track and field I don’t even have to mention the multiplicity of names from Wint through Walker, and in cricket most recently we have true world class performers like Courtney Walsh, Chris Gayle and a number of others in the past 20 years.

In football this has not happened, it has not even come close to happening! We have not developed a true world class footballer at an equivalent Walsh type level(one of the world’s greatest all time bowlers, he is in that discussion) or even at a Gayle type level (a world beater and one of the best bats of this current era).

The closest we have come is Ricardo Gardener and Ricardo Fuller, the first is a consistent contributor on an English Premier league team (best league in the world) for ten plus years, an excellent achievement, especially when compared to all the other players we have developed over the past 30 years, but not a world beater. Fuller has shown flashes of unparalleled brilliance followed by tons of nothing special, but still he has remained relevant to his club and he and Gardener are the best we have seen of our home grown talent in the past 30 years!

Outside of those two players we have some pretty good players in the Scandinavian leagues who have demonstrated they have what it takes to play professional ball on a consistent basis and this is especially so in the MLS, another second tier professional league from a world perspective where Richards, Marshall, Cummings, Williams, Ricketts and a number of others are the best we have to show over the past 10 years, very good players, strong contributors perhaps superior contributors on their team and in the case of Cummings, Marshall and Ricketts have come close to being dominant performers in the MLS but clearly not world beaters!

While at the same time we can name at will, multiple West African players that just seem to ooze to the surface so frequently, now of course we are not comparing Jamaica to the great continent or to a region of that great continent or even to any one specific country as the population size in all these countries way outstrip Jamaica but just looking at the quality of talent that has emerged from multiple countries in West Africa, is…. just amazing! from Ghana; Ayew, Gyan, Essien, Prince Boateng, Asamoah; from the Ivory Coast the Toure brothers and Drogba; from Nigeria a number of really good to great players; from Mali; Kanoute and Keita and on and on it goes where it stops, it will never stop!

What are those countries doing to identify and develop that talent, we must be doing something wrong!!!! I did not even get to Eto’o from Cameroon!! They are all playing at the best clubs in the world and are “Stars” there, everybody know them, ask an average non-Jamaican football fan to name one Jamaican football player and see the puzzled look you get!!

One of the most basic issues with Jamaican football as opposed to say track and field is this issue of measuring performance and identifying and selecting the best players for national duty. Too often we see players lauded for occasional and infrequent brilliant play that somehow gets multiplied manifold in the minds of some and becomes the stuff of legend.

One excellent defense splitting pass once per ten games or one incredible goal per year or a few body shifts leaving an opponent wobble footed in any way and somehow we have a player of mythic proportions, a Greek god! and once such status has been conveyed by any party it is not retractable, least of all in the mind of the player to who it has been attributed to, regardless of subsequent poor performance or no performance, it becomes a struggle of immense proportions between those for; and those against this player with no traction ever gained by either side, just tons of useless and at best somewhat entertaining labrish!!

The truth is it seems very much that when we as fans talk about players it is always more anecdotal rather than about consistent performance, we are not looking at multiple areas of performance and pulling together key indices to measure effectiveness as a player and certainly not in the specific areas in which we are looking for excellence.

As stated before track and field is really pretty straightforward, the person with the best times, longest, highest leaps and throws and doing so consistently and at the right time such as trials will always be selected…………. well most of the time!!!

It can never be the case in track and field that even if one athlete has superior form, better work habits, is more dedicated, has better track pedigree (KC versus Green Island for instance), speaks multiple languages, is brilliant in multiple subjects and is good looking to boot, can she or he ever be the choice over the person who has none of the above or much less in these areas but bottom line is consistently faster or better based on the performance measurement.

There is no real debate on this point, but in football that is not the case and there are many examples of this inconsistency in the selection process, lack of clear and consistent criteria from which to make such selection on the football side of the sports ledger. Some will say that is the difference between a total team sport and sports where there is a considerable element in the individual pursuit for personal improvement and gain which seems to have a clearer path in Track and Field and Cricket.

The bottom line is that the consistent measurement of performance, setting of goals and holding players accountable for their performance at an individual and team level can be the difference maker and the same key criteria can be used to identify the best players, this can be implemented to work consistently and to create the best total outcome, superior individual players and a superior national team. Create the cultural infrastructure for measuring performance and building on that will create the right focus and steer the program down the proper path to consistent improvement.

On an individual fan level from primary school right through premier league ball there is definitely a bias to those players that have the best fluidity in form and best simultaneous mind and body control which can render some opponents incapable of responding in an appropriate manner, this worship by fans at the “balla altar’ of these type of assets promote the development of the wrong set of skills and attributes on a consistent basis when the focus should be on more tangible, clearly measurable performance indicators.

What are these performance indicators, very simple and straightforward stuff! That is next!!
nice piece... however a glaring omission is tappa...
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  #16  
Old April 21st, 2012, 09:15 PM
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Tappa was a good player, but never world class, hence no club in a top league signed him!!
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  #17  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:01 PM
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Bottom line on this is that Bibi has the better career stats at the club level, argument done! Tappa produced at the very highest level in wc too bad we couldn't identify him from early and get him on a Bibi track, who know what we missed there, but from a practical standpoint at a club level there is no comparison.
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  #18  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:04 PM
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Baddaz, I think Tappa is great and at the national level was more productive than Bibi but at club level is where the true measurement is and there is no comparison there.
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  #19  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:08 PM
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Mosiah, excellent point, took me a while to figure it out. Some would say is a certain bias, that may be a part of it, but truth is I was pretty disappointed with last wc so I wiped it from my mind, that and some of that gender bias possibly. Here again in that sport stats rules try's and makes etc, very measurable.
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  #20  
Old April 21st, 2012, 11:21 PM
TheDread TheDread is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baddaz View Post
are you nuts karl... bibi was nowhere near the player tappa was in his prime... no day... go to side with maudib on this point...

not because a player spend considerable time in the premier league makes him better than someone who didn't play in the league...

yeah good piece by stonigut... however him miss out on tappa...
Tappa didn't have the same value Bibi had to the English game. Tappa's skills would have been better served in Spain or Italy.
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  #21  
Old April 22nd, 2012, 01:47 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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true Tappa nuh inna di kick and run ting...
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  #22  
Old April 22nd, 2012, 02:11 AM
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Silly question! Clearly their basketball team must finish among the medals, Rudi!
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  #23  
Old April 22nd, 2012, 09:53 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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what yuh tink bout Roger Milla ?



The question is who is better player.. World Class.. Bibi or Tappa.. ?

Mi would venture to look at performance on the World Stage..

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  #24  
Old April 22nd, 2012, 10:01 AM
Muadib Muadib is offline
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rubbish logic.

There are MANY other elements that determine if one is signed by a club in a 'top league'..

When yuh look pon a player you should be able to determine based on his abilities and play at the International level if he is 'World Class' or not..

Are his football skills (decision making,control, passing, vision, dribbling) at a World Class level ?

Could he play for a Team in the FIFA Top 10 or would he look out of place... be a liability ?

How does he look playing against the Top Teams..
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  #25  
Old April 22nd, 2012, 10:37 AM
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I know I risk the wrath and venom of Tappaites with my next comment...but....my......President's back is broad. ....so I'll hide behind Lazie. I would pick Hector Wright over Tappa in my team any day.
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