Paul mi a go start a new thread

[Assasin]

because I don't want this to be lost.

A few years ago I met a former member of the OJay's management team. She told me about when they performed in Jamaica years ago.

They were having sound problems and the show was running late. The place was packed as people turned out to see the mighty OJays. People were getting restive as it drag on. When the OJay finally came out, Eddie Levert saying ina a joking manner "N..... unnu can't sit down" [she said a little more but I can't remember word for word but he did you the term].

People booed and walk out to and I am not sure if the OJay has been back since but if Eddie has said "Old Neaga" the same people would be laughing and maybe not been offended.

I am not into the translation stuff and "saying it friendly or not". I haven't heard Suarez said he didn't say anything in that vein that could offend Evra, instead his team and supporters talk about translation and the fact how it used in his country. I don't know if he should get 8 match ban and Evra should get nothing but there is enough on his part to apologise for what it cause to his employer and his teammates if nobody else.

[Peter R]

Assasin,

Following your analysis, suppose he had been charged? should he be found guilty of being a racist? and thrown into jail? if he said claimed that in his neck of the woods the term was acceptable and he used it unwittingly... yes, I know, ignorance of the law is not an excuse...

Having said that, in your analogy there were supposedly thousands of witnesses, in the Evra-Suarezz case it was one man's word against another as to how the word was used... yes, the word was used, before somebody bite mi head... and I see no one want to touch my "white stars" post

[Assasin]

you seem me advocate for him to be thrown in jail? The fact is if he is guilty of using the word and offending Evra whatever the case he should accept that and apologise for it. I have have never said he is a racist and I have no proof of that but in the game we can't afford for people to be using that kind of language and choose who is a racist or not, or who intended to use it or what it mean to others. Is either we continue to have a ban on such language or not.

I was seeing people on the forum saying let us put it behind and move on from the day it happen. Maybe we should have told it Suarez.

[Peter R]

Sass, I am not saying that you advocated for those things...I am also speaking in analogous terms: " being thrown into jail" = an 8 match ban, being labelled a "racist" by many here is also true... so if you re-read the post knowing I am not accusing you of anything what do you think? should the guy in JA have been thrown in jail had he been charged? and labelled aracist?

I agree that ultimately egos should be put aside and "apologies " issued by both men( Suarez I believe claimed that Evra told him about his sister's parts (should we believe that?? anyway...)) if that is the route we have to take to put it to rest that's probably one of the cleanest ways of the two men putting things behind... my only fear is that these apologies would now smell of political correctness and pressure and therefore have no meaning, at least in the near term. I could be wrong, maybe it should be done right away, this is not an area I know much about so my opinion is just that... however, I do agree with you on that.

Suarez will have to understand that the word negro cannot be used in the English public... I would imagine that if he didn't before now he must...when I moved to TT years ago after living in Canada for many many years... it took me a while before I became comfortable again with saying " de chinee man etc."...As you would know, in CAnada "asian" or "oriental" is the term of choice, and an Indian was a "south asian" or "south-east asian"... couldn't even say "black" after a while... but "African-American " etc etc. the political correctness can be stifling ...however I fully understand the motives behind these measures in countries where minorities have been historically discriminated against...

[Assasin]

cool, I thought it was direct question to me but I understand your wandering mind.

The problem I have when is it ok in the game? Only when racist use it? If this is not handled with care, this is going to happen very soon again. While it maybe stiff penalty for Suarez, the FA know they can't be dealing with many more cases if they want to sell the game to the world and I am sure all of these clubs are trying to reach out to their worldwide audiences.

Also remember that a sportman career is very fickle and you never want to end up like Barry Bonds and Terrell Owens. Having the talent, wanting a team to play for but teams see you as a distraction.

[Paul Marin]

because I don't want this to be lost.

A few years ago I met a former member of the OJay's management team. She told me about when they performed in Jamaica years ago.

They were having sound problems and the show was running late. The place was packed as people turned out to see the mighty OJays. People were getting restive as it drag on. When the OJay finally came out, Eddie Levert saying ina a joking manner "N..... unnu can't sit down" [she said a little more but I can't remember word for word but he did you the term].

People booed and walk out to and I am not sure if the OJay has been back since but if Eddie has said "Old Neaga" the same people would be laughing and maybe not been offended.

I am not into the translation stuff and "saying it friendly or not". I haven't heard Suarez said he didn't say anything in that vein that could offend Evra, instead his team and supporters talk about translation and the fact how it used in his country. I don't know if he should get 8 match ban and Evra should get nothing but there is enough on his part to apologise for what it cause to his employer and his teammates if nobody else.

Agreed and understood. And as for the original incident, that's the way it should have been handled. Unfortunately, Suarez was never given that chance (to apologise although he may have internally) because of the way both Liverpool, it's lawyers and the FA handled the whole fiasco.

I level blame MOSTLY (but not exclusively) at the feet of the FA who brought the charges. They had every opportunity to *require* a private meeting between the two clubs and the players without it becoming the big bruhaha it became.

The minute that the police said there was not enough evidence, things should have stopped right there and the matter handled by cooler heads who would then *instruct* the players on how to proceed.

[Paul Marin]

cool, I thought it was direct question to me but I understand your wandering mind.

The problem I have when is it ok in the game? Only when racist use it? If this is not handled with care, this is going to happen very soon again. While it maybe stiff penalty for Suarez, the FA know they can't be dealing with many more cases if they want to sell the game to the world and I am sure all of these clubs are trying to reach out to their worldwide audiences.

Also remember that a sportman career is very fickle and you never want to end up like Barry Bonds and Terrell Owens. Having the talent, wanting a team to play for but teams see you as a distraction.

Saas, the problem here is that there was a misunderstanding between the players. Five pages into the report a blind man would see that. All the collection of data done by the FA before the hearing would have told them that there was a misunderstanding. In other words, their investigation should have led them to that conclusion unless they were just plain stupid or vindictive. The reason I am stating this as a response to your post is that while I agree that these things have to be handled with care; in this case, they completely botched it. They have unwittingly caused much damage.

The other day I was listening to talksport on the internet. I only caught the end of it but they were speculating that white players have been silent because they feel that they will be labeled racist if they support Suarez. That has to be just as disconcerting (if true) as any claim of racism by anyone. Until everyone can feel they will be treated fairly, there is no justice.

[Assasin]

I personally don't think Liverpool handled it well. They should have state their position clearly on racism before anything else but they didn't do it and that is my biggest disappointment with them.

The biggest difference with us is that I think in any context it was used it was not right. You maybe think different. I sincerly hope Suarez understand but for the game same no apology in this fiasco is too much.

[Paul Marin]

I personally don't think Liverpool handled it well. They should have state their position clearly on racism before anything else but they didn't do it and that is my biggest disappointment with them.

The biggest difference with us is that I think in any context it was used it was not right. You maybe think different. I sincerly hope Suarez understand but for the game same no apology in this fiasco is too much.

Saas, I asked OJ earlier "If Fuller called Ji Sung Park a "Chiney" would he be racist?" We do think differently because -- to me -- context matters. I can tell you right now, that if that had happened to Fuller and he had been charged and banned as Suarez had been charged and banned, the sentiments on this board defending Fuller would be deafening, my voice among them. However, my defense of Fuller would be predicated on the FA's approach to dispensing justice where the "burden of proof" is on the accused, not the accuser and where the "presumption of innocence" is lost. Secondly, intent and context matter. I posted elsewhere where the FA clearly stated that intent (context as Gamma pointed out) did NOT matter.

Anyway, people are letting emotion get in the way of logic and it is sad, because as I said elsewhere, for those of us who are minorities, we especially with 700,000 black men in jail in America, can't let the "system" take away "burden of proof" or "presumption of innocence", no matter the colour, race or creed of the accused and no matter if we like them or not.

[Paul Marin]

I personally don't think Liverpool handled it well. They should have state their position clearly on racism before anything else but they didn't do it and that is my biggest disappointment with them.

The biggest difference with us is that I think in any context it was used it was not right. You maybe think different. I sincerly hope Suarez understand but for the game same no apology in this fiasco is too much.

I also agree Liverpool did not handle it well.

[Assasin]

As I said I think 8 games was a bit harsh but I have no problem with Fuller been punished. I remember taking a plane from England and talking a guy talking a guy and I asked him if he is from India the look on his face says it all, he said he was from Kashmere(SP). It is sad that we get so sensitive on race and orgin but to some people today it is life and death.

There are still many blacks in England who will not go near a pocket of young white men for fear of been ruffed up or hurt. Still too many blacks who won't go to game for the fear of hooligans so it hard for me to even support any for on the pitch. We have come a far way but I don't think we have reach the point where we can pick and choose which ones should be used on the pitch.

[Paul Marin]

As I said I think 8 games was a bit harsh but I have no problem with Fuller been punished. I remember taking a plane from England and talking a guy talking a guy and I asked him if he is from India the look on his face says it all, he said he was from Kashmere(SP). It is sad that we get so sensitive on race and orgin but to some people today it is life and death.

There are still many blacks in England who will not go near a pocket of young white men for fear of been ruffed up or hurt. Still too many blacks who won't go to game for the fear of hooligans so it hard for me to even support any for on the pitch. We have come a far way but I don't think we have reach the point where we can pick and choose which ones should be used on the pitch.

At least you are consistent and clear. If you don't believe context matters, then that's your prerogative and that's okay. As that example was a hypothetical, we can leave that done.

However, my bigger beef than the alleged act by Suarez was the process by which guilt was attributed to the man. Do you think that the FA handled the matter fairly? Do you think that there was a "burden of proof" placed on the accuser that was met? Do you think that Suarez was "presumed innocent" until "proven guilty"? Do you think that in matters of racism, the charges should be substantiated by more than one man's word against another?

These questions highlight the issues that I believe are the REAL concern, not Luis Suarez. Like him or not, he is a scapegoat pure and simple.

[Assasin]

The fact is we know that the FA get a lot of things wrong as does many courts and it sometimes depend on your lawyer and who you are up against. What I know is he is guilty of saying and for that he should apologise.

I will continue tomorrow. I will go to bed.

[Paul Marin]

The fact is we know that the FA get a lot of things wrong as does many courts and it sometimes depend on your lawyer and who you are up against. What I know is he is guilty of saying and for that he should apologise.

I will continue tomorrow. I will go to bed.

Good night. Mañana.

[Karl]

The reason I have not taken a position on either side - Just have not seen anything that says Saurez made racist comments or anything that definitively says he did not.

...just many persons claimly he did and a few claiming he did not.

However on the hand shaking incidents - Saurez and Ferdinand - both gentlemen were equally guilty!

That argument claiming Ferdinand 'less guilty', is crap!