Karl: Academy vs. Schools

[Karl]

I sort of felt it that you were lost. Come home karl The point is this: if you are going to do all that in a high school setting, why not just build an academy? Why mimic one when you can have the real thing.

You are lost!
Why not build 3 academies and also have a great school(s) system?
I want both - with each being top quality!!! ...nuh waan nuh try-a-ting effort...professional grade, mi seh!!!

[Karl]

Tell me the last time that any top manager has ever spoke about the success of their development programs based on winning? The speak about success in terms of the players coming through. They simply have different objectives. The 300 kids at La Masia are being blooded to be pros that Barca wants to sell, but keep the best for themselves. Winning is secondary...its producing a player that will make the first team that is the objective.

Not about winning?
- ...well the players sold fund the TEAM...to fulfill aim of wins!

- ...and those making the 1st TEAM are to help the 1st TEAM win!

- ...and keeping the club afloat is a WIN!

Wonder why you think it is not about winning?

[Peter R]

So Karl, You're saying JC goes to Papine to recruit a boy for altruistic reasons? doubt it! if this is any better, IMO, it is 90% about winning and 10% development.

Here is a quote from Alberto Capellas, Senior Youth Coordinator at Barcelona:

'It's not luck,' insists Capellas. 'It's work. It's our model, which has been honed over many years by lots of people providing specialist skills and all working in the same direction, with the same objective: to prepare players for the first team.'


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[Karl]

Karl... if by "youth player" you mean a youth playing in a recognized, organized league...it is far from correct to claim 180K youth players in JA. We may have 180K (or more) youth players playing football regularly.... in their community for recreation purposes

The US records MILLIONS of kids in organized leagues... However Jamaica may have merely a few thousand kids playing organized league ball

Let's stick to apples vs apples please

...just lazy to go through the steps to whittle down that 180,000 as per what I did with the US 3+million to 1+million

...but if you had noticed I mentioned the struggle to...

...do the math in terms of kids with potential to go on to being competent players US v Ja if we assume equal %age numbers on required talent (abounds)?

...then tell us where we shall have the wherewithal to produce more than 12 good NPL clubs with youth arms...and 3 or so academies that must produce for us players and TEAMs that can compete with top world teams if you disregard maximizing on levels of development in every area?

You tell me how we can afford to not provide the best we can for every child? ...our numbers are not as those in Brazil or any of the top world teams. It is easy...at least I think it is easy...to understand how someone from Brazil or the USA or England...or even smaller countries with greater wealth and concentration of academies and clubs can poo-poo schools...they can throw great talent into the trask backet and still have more than enough great talents to sit at or near the top of the world...but a Jamaica cannot. It is madness to think it makes economic or any type of sense for Jamaica to use those countries systems without adaptation to our realities!!!

*Present Jamaica realities suggest it is a struggle to find at each age group level 1 when more than 30 is needed world class player!!!!

Mi a techa mi affi lef sinting fi challenge di mine!!!
Still - good catch, sah!!!

[Karl]

Winning is a just one measure of success, it is not necessarily the primary goal. When development is the objective, the coach may not always, probably not, field his best eleven in a match; "lesser" players would most likely to be given a run to demonstrate improvement etc.

In the Manning Cup etc., the ONLY goal is winning. It is NOT about development, that is why you see all these imports being brought in, given a spot in 4th,5th or 6th form as the case may be, to bolster the team.

Re: Boys who come in
Isn't that an assumption that the development of the player...and those around is not paramount?

It has been repeated so often that winning is everything that it has now become 'truth'?! Right?

[Don1]

Which one of us is stuck?
How can you look at a country with over 3 MILLION...yes 3 million youth players and when needed finances is allowed to weed out those who can afford the top academies more than 1 million youth players...with *Jamaica and its 180,000 approx. - my rough calculations - youth players?

...do the math in terms of kids with potential to go on to being competent players US v Ja if we assume equal %age numbers on required talent (abounds)?

Karl... if by "youth player" you mean a youth playing in a recognized, organized league...it is far from correct to claim 180K youth players in JA. We may have 180K (or more) youth players playing football regularly.... in their community for recreation purposes

The US records MILLIONS of kids in organized leagues... However Jamaica may have merely a few thousand kids playing organized league ball

Let's stick to apples vs apples please

[Peter R]

Winning is a just one measure of success, it is not necessarily the primary goal. When development is the objective, the coach may not always, probably not, field his best eleven in a match; "lesser" players would most likely to be given a run to demonstrate improvement etc.

In the Manning Cup etc., the ONLY goal is winning. It is NOT about development, that is why you see all these imports being brought in, given a spot in 4th,5th or 6th form as the case may be, to bolster the team.

[Karl]

Karl - the world has moved way beyond what you and I did. The rest of the world is moving ahead with a successful formula that does NOT include the schools for a good reason...because it is better.

You are stuck in a time warp and stuck to a principle which I think will be proven ineffective in the long run. You will be like the Japanese soldier marooned on the Pacific island still fighting the war in 1950!

School football should be there, but it is not the place for development unless there is some RADICAL system that I am not aware of. I used to be on the fence on this one, but after going through this program and seeing what US Soccer is trying to do, I have changed my mind completely. Schools are not the answer, it is just not the right environment any more than a football academy would be the right place to teach chemistry.

Which one of us is stuck?
How can you look at a country with over 3 MILLION...yes 3 million youth players and when needed finances is allowed to weed out those who can afford the top academies more than 1 million youth players...with *Jamaica and its 180,000 approx. - my rough calculations - youth players?

...do the math in terms of kids with potential to go on to being competent players US v Ja if we assume equal %age numbers on required talent (abounds)?

...then tell us where we shall have the wherewithal to produce more than 12 good NPL clubs with youth arms...and 3 or so academies that must produce for us players and TEAMs that can compete with top world teams if you disregard maximizing on levels of development in every area?

You tell me how we can afford to not provide the best we can for every child? ...our numbers are not as those in Brazil or any of the top world teams. It is easy...at least I think it is easy...to understand how someone from Brazil or the USA or England...or even smaller countries with greater wealth and concentration of academies and clubs can poo-poo schools...they can throw great talent into the trask backet and still have more than enough great talents to sit at or near the top of the world...but a Jamaica cannot. It is madness to think it makes economic or any type of sense for Jamaica to use those countries systems without adaptation to our realities!!!

*Present Jamaica realities suggest it is a struggle to find at each age group level 1 when more than 30 is needed world class player!!!!

[Sir X]

They are in competitions arent they,development and winning go hand in hand, they all want to sell theirs as the best.Winning those academy tournaments go a far way.

Can you admit that,cant see them selling development being losers.

[Paul Marin]

Liverpool academy vs chelsea or man etc arent going for glory when they play u 17 and 18 games,glory isnt reserved for our likkle school boy league,pretty sure when barca and real academy youths battle,development and glory go hand in hand.

Be practical.

Tell me the last time that any top manager has ever spoke about the success of their development programs based on winning? The speak about success in terms of the players coming through. They simply have different objectives. The 300 kids at La Masia are being blooded to be pros that Barca wants to sell, but keep the best for themselves. Winning is secondary...its producing a player that will make the first team that is the objective.

[Sir X]

Liverpool academy vs chelsea or man etc arent going for glory when they play u 17 and 18 games,glory isnt reserved for our likkle school boy league,pretty sure when barca and real academy youths battle,development and glory go hand in hand.

Be practical.

[Karl]

WRONG ENVIRONMENT! The schools are going for glory, not development, nor do they have players in their environments (at some schools) of equivalent levels as you would expect in the clubs. To ask the schools to be the leaders for player development that critical stage in a player's life is not fair. Let the schools play for their glory, but they won't be doing it with the country's future stars. That doesn't mean there can't be cooperation between schools, clubs, JFF, or good coaches in the schools, but the primary path is the clubs. Here is an example. Let's say little Winston goes to Campion. He is a BIG balla...what do you think the right environment for Winston's football development is? Should Winston play for Real Mona which has a path to the National team, or play for Campion, where he has few good players around him?

Re: Winston
If the football teacher at Campion is better than the one at the club...then...Campion should (using Jamaica) have a better TEAM than the club.

It has always amazed me why the schools' teams are not whapping the club teams!!! I think the school players are majority 'smarter' than the club players. The smarter players should most often win!!!

You will remember that my RBSC Forum charge to Colour=National U-17 coach Andrew Edwards is whap the NPL TEAMs.

[Paul Marin]

Paul you are a smart man i hope , long time wi nuh ave a sensible convo since yuh stab Rafa inna im kneck back..hehe...but ansa mi diss


Which club in jamica ave di finances fi set up a academy ? you know that entails major financial investment in a youth.Even if you do as some academies do in the us , charge soccer moms to send their kids to these academies, can our economy afford this on the average citizen.

What is wrong with strengthening the schools, wouldnt that be great ,why are you hell bent on following an american system that requires major funding, be it from clubs,citizens or JFF,knowing the economy..wi bruk.

We both agree on spin offs, knowledge on knowledge- volunterism.Anyway i hear you, you hear me , as Gamma say, lets agree to disagree...last words ,be practical.

lata.

I am not advocating the clubs setting up an academy, just having teams that go down to the 6 year old level. It could be a source of revenue for them. If they charge x-amount a session per child, give them a pretty uniform, and a chance to play in a organized fashion, you will see how many kids turn up. The point is that the player's development has to start early and has to be consistent with a national team's philosophy and system. The clubs can make money of the model I suggested...not lose...and be more integrated with the communities.

[Paul Marin]

Good cygar!
Very good!

btw - How do you square that with saying it could not be also done in or by schools?

What is the obstacle? Scheduling? Cost?

WRONG ENVIRONMENT! The schools are going for glory, not development, nor do they have players in their environments (at some schools) of equivalent levels as you would expect in the clubs. To ask the schools to be the leaders for player development that critical stage in a player's life is not fair. Let the schools play for their glory, but they won't be doing it with the country's future stars. That doesn't mean there can't be cooperation between schools, clubs, JFF, or good coaches in the schools, but the primary path is the clubs. Here is an example. Let's say little Winston goes to Campion. He is a BIG balla...what do you think the right environment for Winston's football development is? Should Winston play for Real Mona which has a path to the National team, or play for Campion, where he has few good players around him?

[Karl]

I would not limit it to anyone. The point is that anyone can get trained on the JFF's chosen system. If they coach at a school - great. The point is that the best players will gravitate towards the clubs and a strong club system is the core of everything. They don't have to be wealthy - look at Estudiantes in Argentina - they consistently produce top professionals and they are one of the least financially able in the country. It is more about their philosophy and commitment to expanding their knowledge. Note that nowhere did I mention schools being part of the core - they can be there, just not the focus.

Paul: Are you saying *man has not got the ability to focus on more than one thing or one area at a time within a particular discipline?

*man = refers to the plural!