Exile - Discussion: The Manley Years

[Don1]

i saw it, felt it and heard it.

i heard someone who did not even know my old man say ...say "gweh capitalist bwoy" along south camp road.

Surely you have now recovered from that traumatic experience, distressing as it may have been for you as a child.



respek

[Assasin]

you sure?

[Gamma]

everyday...in every way i'm getting better and better

[Gamma]

well..are they all still socialists? they have traded the dashiki for armani suits and the ladas for prados and mercedes...what dat tell yuh?

trevor munroe was driving an audi for christsake and he was a communist!!!

[Don1]

Historian, your analogy to "majority of proud black Guyanese" is misguided and irrelevant but further in your post you gave a much better overall picture and CONTEXT than in your earlier remarks (other thread). There were many mistakes and the international political climate was much different then with east-west, US-Soviet and Ja-Cuba links.
I was no baby in the 70's - be real... and I still maintain that the social fabric started it's decline in the post-Manley era. The phases recalled are:
Struggle for Nationhood and Independence - Norman Manley/Bustamante
Struggle for Equal Rights, Social Justice (local and international)-Manley
Economic Development Model - Seaga/Patterson
Deconstruction and Dis-establishment/Inchoate Period -Patterson/Portia/Golding.

The post-Manley era saw opportunities for national development sidelined for partism, cronyism and a total breakdown even before the rule of the Dons. There was always a divide in Jamaica - those who had (or thought they had) and those who would never have, the promises made in the 80's for "money to jingle in your pocket" by Seaga was never realized by the majority of working class citizens who supported him. Instead it was back to the '21 families' and politics as usual.

And we could go on.... My perspectives are CLEARLY different from yours, I do not intend to convince you otherwise as you are fixed in your views and recollection of our history. But then again some still say Colombus "discovered" Jamaica.

Manley was very well meaning, charismatic and even brilliant in many respects as a politician.


His big flaw was naivete.... not appreciating the implications of:


1. Alienating Jamaica's business elite and elements of the middle class.



These groups are largely selfish, unsophisticated and unwilling to see past immediate personal comfort and aggrandizement.

When there is even a hint of a threat to their hegemony their answer is to export capital first and themselves later. Obviously a nice way to wreck an economy.


When Jamaica's favoured classes feel intimidated for real or imagined reasons... they vote with their feet & bank accounts.


When Jamaica's urban poor feel threatened... they vote with the gun.



We suffer from both destructive syndromes to this day.



Solution: Less inflammatory rhetoric... more understanding, cooperation & moral suasion



2. Encouraging, not dissuading fighting and not cooperation with the JLP.


This completely polarized the country and created armed opposing camps throughout the country... turning ghettos into garrisons. Manley should have realized that PNP "Socialism" allied with a Seaga led, CIA-backed JLP would be a prescription for disaster.

He should have moderated himself/his cronies and his policies at least after his 1976 victory at the polls.


Solution: Less inflammatory rhetoric... more cooperation and concessions to the opposing side.


Manley was a supreme idealist with some really great (and some not so great) and socially important policies... but idealism is a necessary but not sufficient element to move a country forward.



Politicians need to be pragmatic and understand the consequences and limitations of a policy promising fundamental change. Change inspires fear in many, especially when they have a vested interest in the status quo ante.



Manley only understood this after 1980 when his idealism turned to realism.

[Don1]

well..are they all still socialists? they have traded the dashiki for armani suits and the ladas for prados and mercedes...what dat tell yuh?

trevor munroe was driving an audi for christsake and he was a communist!!!

Former communists shouldn't drive Audis??



Where would he find after sales service for a Lada, Yugo or Trabant??


Come on now!!!

[Assasin]

the real communist nuh want Audis, no wonder them a "former"

You think most a them coulda live communist lives? where their pockets are not deeply rewarded for their education and skills?

[Don1]

the real communist nuh want Audis, no wonder them a "former"

You think most a them coulda live communist lives? where their pockets are not deeply rewarded for their education and skills?

I think you miss my point.

[Assasin]

no mi get it but the fact is what I think Gamma is trying to say is most of who said they wre communist and wanted it by a democratic mean couldn't live a day under it except if they were the leader.

They were all so quick to embrace the far right capitalism. It greave me to see them saying education and healthcare couldn't be free.

[Gamma]

they are former communists because they drive audis...yuh get MY point?

[Rudi]

no mi get it but the fact is what I think Gamma is trying to say is most of who said they wre communist and wanted it by a democratic mean couldn't live a day under it except if they were the leader.

They were all so quick to embrace the far right capitalism. It greave me to see them saying education and healthcare couldn't be free.

An odd observation coming from you. Education and healthcare couldn't be free was exactly what the JLP said in the 70's. The ultimate vindication of Michael Manley is that the stated policies of the current JLP are lifted directly from the PNP of the 70's without the communist rhetoric. Your leader went to Cuba and praised Castro and was not branded a communist. Your leader called for an end to the cuban embargo and so far no call from the CIA fo r regime change. Your minister of agriculture calls for more local food consumption ( cassave etc.) so far the business class has not responded with hoarding and we dont hear how the government don't want the people to eat corn flakes. Please explain.

[Assasin]

the fact is I have no leader.
I give Manley credit for such things as free education and healthcare and building schools. However I am not in a vacuum and his economy policies turned out to be a disaster because of lack of accountability.

I have said education should be free for all Jamaicans because without it nuff a we that want kids to pay couldn't go to school. Yes it is Bruce Golding time and I can assess some of thing he is doing and I can look back on them and see if they actually contributed to the good of Jamaica or not.

We need to reflect upon the the good of our leaders and grow from it. Learn from the failed policies and either make them better or get rid of them. I am not into the worshipping business or sugar coating thing.

You think CIA have time fi waste now when Bush have them tied up in the Middle East?

I am never afraid to give our leaders credit for the good I see them do but I not afraid to point out the ills either.

"Hoarding the food" Did you see what Bruce Golding did when the fertilizer produce jack up the price? That goes to show that maybe Manley could have created policies to conteract what he thought was hoarding. The simple economic fact was it was not just hoarding but people reaction which could have been expected.

[Rudi]

no mi get it but the fact is what I think Gamma is trying to say is most of who said they wre communist and wanted it by a democratic mean couldn't live a day under it except if they were the leader.

They were all so quick to embrace the far right capitalism. It greave me to see them saying education and healthcare couldn't be free.

Odd comments coming from you. Education and healthcare couldn't be free was precisely what the JLP said in the 70's. The minister of agriculture calls for consumption of local staples(cassava etc,) and berates the merchants for ripping off consumers and the local business class does not respond with hoarding . The prime minister goes to cuba and praises the accomplishments of cuba and no one assumes he is infected with the communist bug. The stated policies of the JLP seem to be a carbon copy of the "communist" PNP of the 70's yet the local business class dont seem worried. Please explain.

[Karl]

"Hoarding the food" Did you see what Bruce Golding did when the fertilizer produce jack up the price? That goes to show that maybe Manley could have created policies to conteract what he thought was hoarding. The simple economic fact was it was not just hoarding but people reaction which could have been expected.

Of topic a little?
Fertilizer!

Those incharge gave away approximately USD1,000,000.00 to persons outside of the island (and received nothing in return )...and caused the local producer to lay off workers - i.e. increase unemployment!

[Lazie]

Of topic a little?
Fertilizer!

Those incharge gave away approximately USD1,000,000.00 to persons outside of the island (and received nothing in return )...and caused the local producer to lay off workers - i.e. increase unemployment!

Yuuh aware thats a different issue from what Sass talking about?