Raising the bar - part II

[Muadib]

Sorry to cut in.. but.. would Tappa make your side ?

or would he be penalized for only reaching as far as D4 in hingland.. suh if you find a UB40 midfielder playing in the Championship (D2) him automatically get select over Tappa... ??

[Stonigut]

I love your logic, this is exactly the reason why we cannot move forward, burying our head in the sand of local environment. If we did what you said and only chose based on what was done locally we would not even be having this discussion. You have closed your mind to the only option that offers the short term solution to Jamaica being competitive on the world stage.

What the clubs outside of Jamaica offer is an environment in which the best players can test themselves against the best other countries have to offer and clearly only our best make it to these clubs. Thus the competitive cauldron based on meritocracy has been created and those that survive its fire are the ones who best represent us. Truth is I cannot think of one country that actually has developed even a halfway decent side to come close to making a world cup that uses the system you propose, it is burying your head in the sand while others race past you at breakneck speed.i can already tell you that making it to rio will not be easy, guat in this round is a different team that we have been beating consistently, even with our new stellar recruits it will be a test.

Cr, panama, el sal, mex, can,USA alll teams that can beat us on any day, we need the best players we can get to make it to the top three in the hex, those players that play for professional clubs outside Jamaica have already earned a place beyond our local players by the mere fact that they have been chosen to play in a pro system and if they survive that environment and are contributing that is exactly what we are after.

When one of our players fail on the field iN any pro league it is symbolic of a failure somewhere in our system that does not create the proper foundation mentally, physically to be competitive in a new environment where everyone else is as skilled as you or their combination of assets is so much that it overwhelms what you have, at the very least our best must be able to compete outside of ja in any club environment especially 2nd tier pro clubs mls, championship and below and when one of our promising players that everyone like you think is so great, when they fail there is no place for review, no place for how did we fail, what did we miss, nothing but excuses which leads to more failures. Well maybe is true him never bring him favorite boots or just true is pure kick and run him cant fit in,or it did too cold or the man them just never like him, failure is the opportunity to improve and when we get our best players outside ja is when we see what our weaknesses are, without that test outside of the local arena we are going nowhere, suh it go. Look around you f you cannot compete outside your own backyard you may as well hang it up, everything we are doing in Jamaica should be aimed at competing at the top level outside of Jamaica for our most promising, no other way to do it.

I personally want more than that, I want to get the best possible side out there and continue to build a performance driven system based on stages of performance achievement at every level of football, local, 3rd tier, 2nd tier and 1st tier without it there is no improvement just mucking around in constant mediocrity as we have been doing since 1998. Good discussion but I can only help you so much.

[Don1]

Stonigut;356855]Brethren you are killing me with flawed logic. Ok here is something we agree upon

No. I have pointed out the fatal flaw that makes your argument irredeemable. Meritocracy based on demonstrated performance in the only environment that matters ie the Jamaican environment and a pre-determined hierarchy based on status are incompatible constructs.

Your argument cannot recover from this conflict and is lost...sorry

"Jamaica has faltered badly in the grass roots development of players in an organized system of high level coaching and exposure to quality play" your words. Well that is exactly what I have said over and over, the difference is what is the next step, What is long term solution, it is to develop such system piece by piece with a long term 20 year development plan to start the ball rolling.

Good that you see the sense of this

In the mean time you cyan wait for that to bear fruit, you have a few options, we have developed about 50 plus players in last 15 years playing at various pro clubs different divisions all over, we also have players of Jakan origin that play in top notch leagues and are good decent players, well all we are saying is the short cut for now is to pick the most seasoned, tested players in the best leagues. Pick based on performance and you have a seasoned well tested core to compete as best as you are able.

The only thing relevant here is

Pick based on performance

Exactly what I'm saying. Performance and not some irrelevant ranking by type of club

Based on your argument you would take an untested gladiator from a backwater part of libya and put him in the ring in Rome. That argument is not even worth having. You pick your best warriors who have mastered a superior environment not ones who have merely emerged at the top of the rubble in the local arena with substandard performance, surely you cannot be against such straightforward common sense logic.

What I'm against is the ridiculous ranking system by club that you promote.

Any coach offering such a rationale for choosing players in the Jamaican environment ...or any environment for that matter ...would need his head examined.

The only ranking that matters is that emerging out of specific performance levels for Jamaica in our particular & peculiar regional environment... the club an individual plays for is an interesting artifact...but not of much relevance a priori.
It may well be that the best choices emerging from a merit based performance process are mostly attached to foreign clubs...but to propose a player ranking before an actual test on the field of play is ludicrous as there will always be cases or the possibility of cases where locals are more suitable than foreigners. Note that locals do not have to be "superior players" in general to be a "better fit" considering Jamaica's particular football environment.

Here the lesson endeth

Selah

[Stonigut]

Brethren you are killing me with flawed logic. Ok here is something we agree upon

"Jamaica has faltered badly in the grass roots development of players in an organized system of high level coaching and exposure to quality play" your words. Well that is exactly what I have said over and over, the difference is what is the next step, What is long term solution, it is to develop such system piece by piece with a long term 20 year development plan to start the ball rolling.

In the mean time you cyan wait for that to bear fruit, you have a few options, we have developed about 50 plus players in last 15 years playing at various pro clubs different divisions all over, we also have players of Jakan origin that play in top notch leagues and are good decent players, well all we are saying is the short cut for now is to pick the most seasoned, tested players in the best leagues. Pick based on performance and you have a seasoned well tested core to compete as best as you are able.


Based on your argument you would take an untested gladiator from a backwater part of libya and put him in the ring in Rome. That argument is not even worth having. You pick your best warriors who have mastered a superior environment not ones who have merely emerged at the top of the rubble in the local arena with substandard performance, surely you cannot be against such straightforward common sense logic.

[Don1]

=Stonigut;356632]Ah I sense a teaching moment! Look the greatest societies and organization in history they get that way through many generations of building a cultural infrastructure based on achievement, goal setting and building a society based on a meritocracy where the cream rose to the top not through bloodlines but through achievement think Rome, think Greece, think Egypt even though there was a strong element of regal control throughout, at every level below there was a meritocratic structure to ensure the best came to the fore. Same here we must build a football structure based on a meritocracy, at one time we had few if any professional players now we have many, there is no doubt that all our players that are playing in pro leagues outside Jamaica are our best of the best crops over the last 15 years or so, we already have the system in place, so this is the first place we should look for our players.

There is no instruction here for me... my regrets to you

A meritocracy is based on PERFORMANCE...not one's station in life as your hierarchy or player grading according to club appears to signal.

So a player in some foreign club should not be automatically granted some exalted status by virtue of that position...

One cannot simultaneously preach merit and pre-determined hierarchy based on status...that renders your argument fundamentally flawed and conflicted.

That foreign player must compete and prove himself on an equal footing in the Jamaican environment along with all others including local players.

Also... Jamaica absolutely DOES NOT have an adequate system of player development in place as you appear to state...quite the opposite in fact.

Our best that got recruited to play pro ball and those that have survived the pro cauldron in the leagues in which they are placed. In the case of football the issue of leadership, initiative, communication skills and teamwork are brought to the fore, so when we see a man like Austin get player of the year award in the top league in a Scandinavian country that means something, when we see Dane Richards and Omar Cummings excel and play well and have to be included on their pro squads Everytime we know these guys are special players, you cannot put a local player in the npl ahead of any of these guys.

A specious argument...seductive but fatally flawed determinism.

Austin is a good case in point...Player of the Year in a foreign club... but his performances for Jamaica? ...Underwhelming to say the least.

Thus the structure is this roughly
1. Players in the epl, Italian, Spanish, German Top leagues that is tier one These players you go to the head of the class for national duty opportunity.
2. Scandinavian leagues, mls, championship, Mexican league these are tier two
3. Npl, ELO, elo2 TNT etc are tier three

Thus a guy who fails in tier three league should not get a chance to play on a national team above a guy who is successfully playing in a tier one or two pro league.

If we don't build a clear and definitive structure so the guys understand what they must do to truly be in the picture you are building wave after wave of mediocrity which we have done at the national level even though we have had some pretty good crops of pro players over the last 15 years. Anyway this is how successful organizations are built In a methodical way where guys must know why they have to do to get into the national setup, where we don't have someone saying he should be on the national team playing npl with a goal strike rate of under 40 percent, but because the standard isn't clear then wHy not throw his hat into the ring, your approach is a continuation of mediocrity, time to build something to last a long time.

Profoundly misguided.

The structure which should be built must NOT be based on a specious hierarchy based on station... it must be performance based on a level playing field.... aka Meritocracy

Where Jamaica has faltered badly is not in (foreign) player selection...but in the grass roots development of players in an organized system of high level coaching and exposure to quality play.

Out of such a system will organically spring a steadier stream of players attractive to foreigners...and ultimately a larger pool of professionals who can compete for national places with those still at home.

It's not rocket science... just logic

[Muadib]

juss suh long as when a Tappa reach pon di scene yuh mek sure him deh pon di field... ala one Cameroon breddah named Roger....

[Stonigut]

For don1

Ah I sense a teaching moment! Look the greatest societies and organization in history they get that way through many generations of building a cultural infrastructure based on achievement, goal setting and building a society based on a meritocracy where the cream rose to the top not through bloodlines but through achievement think Rome, think Greece, think Egypt even though there was a strong element of regal control throughout, at every level below there was a meritocratic structure to ensure the best came to the fore. Same here we must build a football structure based on a meritocracy, at one time we had few if any professional players now we have many, there is no doubt that all our players that are playing in pro leagues outside Jamaica are our best of the best crops over the last 15 years or so, we already have the system in place, so this is the first place we should look for our players.

Our best that got recruited to play pro ball and those that have survived the pro cauldron in the leagues in which they are placed. In the case of football the issue of leadership, initiative, communication skills and teamwork are brought to the fore, so when we see a man like Austin get player of the year award in the top league in a Scandinavian country that means something, when we see Dane Richards and Omar Cummings excel and play well and have to be included on their pro squads Everytime we know these guys are special players, you cannot put a local player in the npl ahead of any of these guys.

Thus the structure is this roughly
1. Players in the epl, Italian, Spanish, German Top leagues that is tier one These players you go to the head of the class for national duty opportunity.
2. Scandinavian leagues, mls, championship, Mexican league these are tier two
3. Npl, ELO, elo2 TNT etc are tier three

Thus a guy who fails in tier three league should not get a chance to play on a national team above a guy who is successfully playing in a tier one or two pro league.

If we don't build a clear and definitive structure so the guys understand what they must do to truly be in the picture you are building wave after wave of mediocrity which we have done at the national level even though we have had some pretty good crops of pro players over the last 15 years. Anyway this is how successful organizations are built In a methodical way where guys must know why they have to do to get into the national setup, where we don't have someone saying he should be on the national team playing npl with a goal strike rate of under 40 percent, but because the standard isn't clear then wHy not throw his hat into the ring, your approach is a continuation of mediocrity, time to build something to last a long time.

[Stonigut]

Ah I sense a teaching moment! Look the greatest societies and organization in history they get that way through many generations of building a cultural infrastructure based on achievement, goal setting and building a society based on a meritocracy where the cream rose to the top not through bloodlines but through achievement think Rome, think Greece, think Egypt even though there was a strong element of regal control throughout, at every level below there was a meritocratic structure to ensure the best came to the fore. Same here we must build a football structure based on a meritocracy, at one time we had few if any professional players now we have many, there is no doubt that all our players that are playing in pro leagues outside Jamaica are our best of the best crops over the last 15 years or so, we already have the system in place, so this is the first place we should look for our players.

Our best that got recruited to play pro ball and those that have survived the pro cauldron in the leagues in which they are placed. In the case of football the issue of leadership, initiative, communication skills and teamwork are brought to the fore, so when we see a man like Austin get player of the year award in the top league in a Scandinavian country that means something, when we see Dane Richards and Omar Cummings excel and play well and have to be included on their pro squads Everytime we know these guys are special players, you cannot put a local player in the npl ahead of any of these guys.

Thus the structure is this roughly
1. Players in the epl, Italian, Spanish, German Top leagues that is tier one These players you go to the head of the class for national duty opportunity.
2. Scandinavian leagues, mls, championship, Mexican league these are tier two
3. Npl, ELO, elo2 TNT etc are tier three

Thus a guy who fails in tier three league should not get a chance to play on a national team above a guy who is successfully playing in a tier one or two pro league.

If we don't build a clear and definitive structure so the guys understand what they must do to truly be in the picture you are building wave after wave of mediocrity which we have done at the national level even though we have had some pretty good crops of pro players over the last 15 years. Anyway this is how successful organizations are built In a methodical way where guys must know why they have to do to get into the national setup, where we don't have someone saying he should be on the national team playing npl with a goal strike rate of under 40 percent, but because the standard isn't clear then wHy not throw his hat into the ring, your approach is a continuation of mediocrity, time to build something to last a long time.

[Don1]

No just pro league, where is a real job, is not a friend thing in who plays, it is about working hard, bonding with teammates, convincing management and coaches that you are it, you are the guy that will take this thing to the next level, win games and fight every time you get on a pitch, With a team first, cohesive brand of ball, give me the best fighters with the most heart and I bet I will get you a draw against any opposition. Yes my bias is finding your place and making it work at the club level if you can't do that you have no business playing for national team.

So..To take your argument to its logical conclusion...there being no professional league in Jamaica... no Jamaica-based player should be considered for the national team?

Your argument is rapidly morphing from the questionable to the ludicrous

[Stonigut]

No just pro league, where is a real job, is not a friend thing in who plays, it is about working hard, bonding with teammates, convincing management and coaches that you are it, you are the guy that will take this thing to the next level, win games and fight every time you get on a pitch, With a team first, cohesive brand of ball, give me the best fighters with the most heart and I bet I will get you a draw against any opposition. Yes my bias is finding your place and making it work at the club level if you can't do that you have no business playing for national team.

[Don1]

Where you go wrong with your hypothesis is your overemphasis on performance in English etc leagues. While this can be ONE indicator of a player's eligibility for donning a Jamaica shirt...it is far from the only criterion nor is it even the most significant.

As they say in boxing...styles make fights.... and how a player performs in the Jamaican team is paramount.... all else is secondary

There is not and should not be any requirement for any player to as you say... have cemented a place in some English (or other foreign) team or the other before being considered by the Jamaican coach. If we support Jamaica weaning itself from the English Crutch...then perhaps we need to wean ourselves from that philosophy

[Stonigut]

Nonono, those who fail, wheel and come back again even harder, that is the philosophy we want to teach, "them think sey me done, we'll me just a come" that is what I am preaching "mah brotha"

Acknowledge failure when it happens and wheel and come back harder, if we place blame firstly on our selves then we will take our the "eternal excuse of everything and everybody but ourselves syndrome"

Finally you are right, the uk born pro ballers are a bandaid, but the truth is it will be a long time before we can wean ourselves off that dope, as we are not building the parallel systems in ball like we have in track where everything is measured to the nth degree and the standards for excellence are well known and propagated across the entire country. Technically our yard ballers are still at the bottom of the barrel

[Don1]

Stonigut;356343]Come on now, no matter how you may be leaning on this issue, the bottom line is that if you fail, you fail, there is no getting around that. If I failed my common entrance exam I could not have gone to Calabar,

Oh...I see. Those who fail Common Entrance are no good and should be discarded by virtue of failure.

Bad analogy...bad philosophy. Period

if I did not pass my a levels I could not have gone to uwi, no matter how bright and talented I may have been, that is how we test people you must step into the cauldron of fire and get tested, well my man stepped into the cauldron and failed On a 3rd div side. Call it Nuh man, I know yuh is a Upper hope road man but you have to step up to the facts even though is a fellow Upper hope road man too.

What I'm saying to you..which you acknowledge to be true...is that you don't have the info to be definitive about the player having not even seen his play and being ignorant of the circumstances... but you do have the option to speculate which is your prerogative.

To say that Daley or any other player who doesn't succeed in a foreign kick and run environment after 8 months should by virtue of that NOT be considered for national duty is plain rubbish...imho ...worse when one comments on a player based on ignorance of the specific facts

What players contribute to the Jamaica team is far more important and often completely unrelated to foreign trials

There are more than sufficient examples to establish that fact

The cardinal sin we continue to repeat is thinking a guy can play badly at club level and come into the national team and be a star, practice makes perfect, yuh can't turn the juice on and off when yuh feel like it, give me the guys dominating and contributing everyday at a pro club level and I wilL show you a side that can compete and bring results on a consistent basis in concacaf.

Wrong,

The cardinal sin Jamaica has made and continues today to make is to fail to put in the systems to develop young players....knowing that we can turn to English journeymen to paper over some of the cracks.

Full time wi leggo dat English crutch and the bankrupt philosophy behind it...it's actually retarding our growth

Memba mi tole yuh

[Stonigut]

Come on now, no matter how you may be leaning on this issue, the bottom line is that if you fail, you fail, there is no getting around that. If I failed my common entrance exam I could not have gone to Calabar, if I did not pass my a levels I could not have gone to uwi, no matter how bright and talented I may have been, that is how we test people you must step into the cauldron of fire and get tested, well my man stepped into the cauldron and failed On a 3rd div side. Call it Nuh man, I know yuh is a Upper hope road man but you have to step up to the facts even though is a fellow Upper hope road man too.


The cardinal sin we continue to repeat is thinking a guy can play badly at club level and come into the national team and be a star, practice makes perfect, yuh can't turn the juice on and off when yuh feel like it, give me the guys dominating and contributing everyday at a pro club level and I wilL show you a side that can compete and bring results on a consistent basis in concacaf.

[Don1]

I am not completely writing him off, but I am saying that if I were Tappa, I would not look his way again until he fought his way back into a strong role in a championship team, that is all, and now he is a far way from that.

You are so way off base on this it isn't even funny.

What a way man cyan worship English ball...LOL